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#1 ARCHIVED POSTS FROM
SPECIAL EDUCATION FOLDER:  IQ SCORES AND DISABILITIES
MARCH 26, 1995 - JULY 20, 1995
FILE NAME:  SPEDIQS1.TXT
35 PAGES

Subj:  maryland
Date:  95-03-26 20:37:39 EDT
From:  Missmarym

maryland (or at least baltimore county) generally defines mr as 70 or
below.....in grad school, the number i was given was 85.Subj:  Re:maryland
Date:  95-03-26 21:19:37 EDT
From:  SusanS29

I think it depends on when you went to grad school. In the 60's many
considered 85 as the cutoff, but that's really too high. most people would
point to 70 as far more appropriate. An awful lot of people with iIQ's of 85
go on to have perfectly normal lives.Subj:  Re:maryland
Date:  95-03-27 03:27:28 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

The numbers are helpful, but in and of themselves, tend to tell a partial
story. I believe that many states and in fact, the DSM-IV if memory serves me
right, consider use of an adaptive measure as helpful in providing
information regarding self care and social functioning skills in order to
round out the picture a bit more. In short, the cuttoffs may rise and fall
with time and trends, but it is the impression of generalized deficits in
adaptive and cognitive functioning that differentiates retardation from other
syndromes.

PeterCB55Subj:  Re:maryland
Date:  95-03-27 20:41:34 EDT
From:  SusanS29

You're right, Peter. There does have to be an IQ below a certain minimum
level, but in addition adaptive skills have to be depressed.

So a person who has, supposedly,a low IQ, but who functions adequately in the
neighborhood, outside of school, will not be labeled "retarded."Subj:  iq
scores
Date:  95-03-31 00:02:47 EDT
From:  LACE G

in california, children with a 70 IQ or below are considered mentally
retarded. Children with IQ 70-80 are unofficially considered educably
mentally retarded and at this point do not qualify for special education
services as learning disabled (since they aren't) or mentally retarded (which
they aren't severe enough to receive services)Subj:  Re:iq scores
Date:  95-03-31 18:37:30 EDT
From:  SusanS29

However... federal law *requires* them to look at more than IQ when deciding
who should be classified as "retarded." A child who doesn't score well on an
IQ test and who has tremendous trouble academically must *also* show severely
delayed development of life skills. If the child performs adequately outside
of school, the child will not be labeled "retarded."

As for the other, in Missouri, students who score too high to be called
"retarded" but who are close to that cutoff are called "slow learners," but
that's an informal label used only to respect the child's abilities and not
push him or her to do things for which they're not yet ready.Subj:  IQ scores
Date:  95-04-02 01:50:14 EDT
From:  Cazbasmom

In Utah the cut off for intellectually disabled is 70.  We also use the
Vineland adaptive scale as part of the evaluation process.  Slow learners are
from the 70 to 90 range.  We no longer us the term MR.Subj:  SusanS29
response to IQ  scores
Date:  95-04-16 16:27:16 EDT
From:  Dls3

In Illinois, many school districts are beginning to use the unoffical label
"slow learner" to justify finding those students ineligible for services
under IDEA.Subj:  IQ?
Date:  95-04-22 15:59:09 EDT
From:  TJSp

Wish I would have found this forum last year.  A terrible conflict with the
school system arose when they attempted to label my 8 yr. old as mentally
handicapped and/or PDD because of an IQ score of 89 and a low (maybe 79) on
the Vineland.  He had a 5 yr. history of ADD with previous IQ scores in the
90-100 range. One psychologist had suggested that if attention problems were
taken into consideration, his IQ rose to 108.  I didn't particularly care
what they labelled him IF that label resulted in appropriate services, but
the services offered for MH or PDD were not appropriate to my son.  A label
of OHI was finally agreed upon and services appropriate for ADD were given
this year and he is doing so well. I hope professionals can be sensitive to
the fact that although most parents will not be thrilled by an IQ of 89, they
may accept that number without necessarily agreeing with the grouping of
services that seems to accompany the label MH-mild.Subj:  RE:IQ scores and
disabilities
Date:  95-04-22 22:38:16 EDT
From:  Mntaineer

I went to school in Ohio.  There, an IQ score less than 80, with academic
deficits, and adaptive behavior deficits in at least two areas qualified a
student as Developmentally Handicapped.  Ohio does not have a category called
mentally retarded.  Currently I work in Texas.  Texas follows the federal
guidelines. A 70 or below in both verbal and performance skills, and deficits
in adaptive behavior qualify a student as mentally retarded. Those with IQs
less than 80 to 85, and who do not qualify as learning disabled students are
considered slow learners in my current district and they fall under regualr
eductaion guidelines; however calling them slow learners does not actually
provide them with many services.  They typically remain in the regular
classrooms with little or no types of modifications.  I'm concenred about
these children who "fall through the cracks".  I am in favor of Ohio's
classification of Developmentally Handicapped for this reason.   Subj:
Re:IQ?
Date:  95-04-22 22:45:06 EDT
From:  Mntaineer

TJSp,

I'd be interested to know where you are from.  To me an IQ of 89 with the
possibilty of it being around 108 when attentional difficulties are factored
out is far from being mentally handicapped.  It also sounds as if the label
was going to determine the services your son received.  I am thankful in my
schooling and in my current district I have always been taught, that it is
the child's educational needs which will determine the appropriate services.
Subj:  Re:IQ?
Date:  95-04-23 00:27:47 EDT
From:  TJSp

Mntainer--for purposes of anonymity, let's just say I'm from the midwest.  I
hope this was an unusual situation.  It's obviously more complex than my
original message.  My son developed SERIOUS problems when placed in an
unstructured classroom.  His behavior was strange.  Our district had never
verified a child OHI because of ADD and for financial reasons didn't want to
start.  There was also a power struggle between the medical community and
educators and educators felt that they weren't being treated as equals.
Because of my son's 5 yr. history with several medical specialists, we had an
established relationship.  I'd like to believe that everyone was motivated in
the right direction, but it was a very painful process for our family.  We
are healing.  Ultimately, we hired a high profile attorney from out of state.
The best news is that the system works.  He received appropriate services
this year and functions comfortably at grade level.  I hope there aren't many
cases like ours, but if there are, I hope they end as well.Subj:  Re:IQ?
Date:  95-04-23 17:19:54 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"I hope professionals can be sensitive to the fact that although most parents
will not be thrilled by an IQ of 89, they may accept that number without
necessarily agreeing with the grouping of services that seems to accompany
the label MH-mild."

You betcha! That's just about the most noodle-headed thing I've heard of in a
LONG time.

It tends to harken back to the time when "mildly MR" sometimes became a
dumping ground for children difficult to diagnose. Some of those cases turned
out to be children of normal intelligence who had language disabilities, and
in a few horrific cases ... were DEAF.

I bet some of them had ADD, but the diagnosis didn't really exist (we had a
label, but extremely vague diagnostic methods with the result that it was
*very* rarely used), so I can only speculate on that.Subj:  Re:RE:IQ scores
and disabilities
Date:  95-04-23 17:26:50 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"There, an IQ score less than 80, with academic deficits, and adaptive
behavior deficits in at least two areas qualified a student as
Developmentally Handicapped.  Ohio does not have a category called mentally
retarded."

In my opinion that number is far too high. An IQ of 80 is no more unusual
than an IQ of 120, which while a nice score showing lots of good strengths
doesn't make the person exceptional in any way. In addition, lots of people
with IQ's of around 75 go on to have perfectly good, independent lives.

"Those with IQs less than 80 to 85, and who do not qualify as learning
disabled students are considered slow learners in my current district..."

I can see the thinking there, but here in Missouri any child not classified
as retarded (or whatever else one chooses to call it) is then eligible for
the LD label if two situations exist:

1) discrepancy between the person's best estimate of potential and
achievement (which, for instance, in a language-impaired child might be based
on the performance part of the WISC and not the full scale)
AND
2) clear evidence that a perceptual deficit is the likely cause of the
discrepancy.

I do not, however, think that slow learners should be placed in classes for
the developmentally handicapped, as the educational needs of a "slow learner"
and a child who is truly "retarded" will be quite different. There are clear
distinctions, and the students are likely to have different vocational and
life outcomes.

Research shows that these "slow learners" learn the most when in with their
other peers, not pulled out for special attention. I went to high school with
someone who supposedly had an IQ of 85 but was quite talented musically, and
sang in the top, select chorus. He graduated from high school and now runs
his own company. I have to wonder if he would have had the same outcome if
he'd been pulled out and put in with very low-functioning students. He
managed to keep up with the rest of us socially and in fact was quite
well-liked.Subj:  Re:IQ?
Date:  95-04-23 17:28:04 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"To me an IQ of 89 with the possibilty of it being around 108 when
attentional difficulties are factored out is far from being mentally
handicapped."

I agree, Mntaineer. I find it quite scary.Subj:  Re:IQ?
Date:  95-04-23 17:32:38 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"It's obviously more complex than my original message.  My son developed
SERIOUS problems when placed in an unstructured classroom.  His behavior was
strange."

Well, sure it was *complex,* but federal law requires that the school
district have people competent to diagnose all the kids, not just the easy
ones.  :/

Children with ADD really can exhibit strange behavior. The first year I
taught a classroom of "emotionally disturbed" children (now they call it
behavior disordered here), I had one student who was placed in there because
he kept doing ... unusual ... things ... such as crawling around on his hands
and knees and barking like a dog during class. He never did *anything* like
that in my special class, and in fact wasn't much of a problem in its
high-level structure.

What would you like to bet that child actually had ADD? Personally I think
the odds are pretty high.

But I'm going back 23 years to 1972. We really should know better now.

I hope you *really* pat yourself on your back for being so determined to
fight for your child. This generation of children with problems like ADD will
be much better off than the last one, but there are still pockets (as you
revealed) where the schools are -- apparently -- 30 or more years
behind.Subj:  Re:IQ?
Date:  95-04-25 23:00:05 EDT
From:  Puns

My 2 cents here is that I would highly suspect of any IQ score.  Since I had
the dubious distinction of raising one child's score 20 points, I've had
little faith in the tests for small children with learning problems.  IQ only
predicts how well a child can be expected to do in school...not in life.  IQ
can also change from tester to tester (In my district some parents take their
children to the local university for another test if they don't qualify for
the gifted program.  Many get in...)  We do use IQ to qualify children for by
discrepancy in my district...but I don't think it means much.  Kids with good
life skills can do better than those with high IQ's if only IQ is attended
to.  So, 80 something, that's really 108...why not?  If you're really
concerned, test him again after a few years of appropriate schooling and see
if his IQ went up.Subj:  Re:IQ?
Date:  95-04-29 17:45:41 EDT
From:  Valjo20

I have taught Severely Emotionally Disturbed children for about ten years,
primarily at the high school level. I certainly sympathize with your struggle
to receive appropriate services for your child, it becomes increasingly
difficult each year. I am disturbed by several parts of your posting. First,
that a psychologist would have the gall to suggest they could predict IQ if
no attention or behavior problems existed. Secondly, it sounds like your
child has problems learning in the classroom and has severe behavior problems
(PDD would indicate autistic like behaviors). This combination of problems
makes appropriate placement even more difficult as the child gets older. I
hope you are insisting on a program which includes in-home behavioral support
services to implement a 24 hour program to get the maximum benefit while your
child is young. Also, I find educational labeling tends to be very trendy in
an effort to be least offensive to parents, but tends to only diminish
services for the students. When I was getting my Masters degree in the late
80's, everyone was Learning Disabled. Now ADD is becoming the same umbrella.
Let's just look at the label- Attention Deficit Disorder (the kids who were
labeled hyperactive when I was young).  Now it is clear, the label have been
expanded to justify many behaviors. I am very confused how a child crawling
on the floor barking reflects any lack of attention. Unlike most people I am
very proud of my SED students. They are bright but also have problems with
anger control, following directions and interacting with peers and staff.
They are often labeled ADD, LD or MR, then finally end up SED and I don't
care. I know they function best in a highly structured classroom with a rich
academic curriculum and theraputic support. Good work and keep fighting for
your child!!! Subj:  Re:IQ?
Date:  95-04-30 09:32:14 EDT
From:  SusanS29

" First, that a psychologist would have the gall to suggest they could
predict IQ if no attention or behavior problems existed."

Actually there's a perfectly valid way to do this. There's a cluster of
subscores called "freedom from distraction." When the subscores on these
three subtests are significantly below other parts of the test, it's assumed
that attentional factors interfere with the child's performance. It's one
indication that ADD may be a possible complicating factor in the child's
performance.

It's also possible to extrapolate what the child's overall IQ would be if the
distracting elements weren't present, and a useful way for the psychologist
to demonstrate that the "official IQ" may well be a minimal measure of the
child's overall potential.

"When I was getting my Masters degree in the late 80's, everyone was Learning
Disabled. Now ADD is becoming the same umbrella."

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with that, having extensive background with both
LD and ADD. I can look back on my caseload and see many, many students over
the years who probably had ADD but were overlooked. I also had students
wrongly labeled "BD" when the real problem was ADD, although I think few of
the LD students had the wrong label. I don't see it as the "latest umbrella."
To me it clearly is improved, refined diagnosis.

"Now it is clear, the label have been expanded to justify many behaviors."
This simply isn't true! No one has used my children's ADD diagnoses to
"justify many behaviors." It has, however, led to good teaching, with the
result that they're both doing well in school in spite of their very real
difficulties.

"I am very confused how a child crawling on the floor barking reflects any
lack of attention."

You don't? The teacher is teaching reading, or math, and the child is on the
floor pretending to be a dog? Do you think that child is attending to the
lesson?

I think you don't fully understand what this thing we call "ADD" is. It's not
what we thought "hyperactivity" was at all. Sometimes students with
attentional problems are hyperactive also, but that isn't the trait that
keeps them from learning. What keeps them from learning is that they have
impaired ability to direct and control where their attention goes. They also
show diminished quality of attention when they try to direct their attention.
They're not in charge of what their mind focuses on. They can't control what
they think about, or whether they focus on the most important elements. It
can be a devastating problem.Subj:  RE:iq
Date:  95-04-30 20:58:49 EDT
From:  TJSp

Couldn't agree more, Susan.  1-2 years ago, my child frequently crawled
around and howled like a cyote.  In a structured environment, he sits at a
desk most of the time, but does need the opportunity to walk around
periodically.

By the way, only school officials thought he had PDD (and the symptoms only
appeared in an unstructured environment)  The ADD diagnosis was confirmed by
3 licensed clinical psychologists, a pediatric neurologist, a pediatrician,
and a child psychiatrist.

Perhaps the ADD diagnosis is exploited. I'm really not in a position to say.
I do know that "the typical treatment for ADD" has been extremely helpful for
my child.Subj:  mr/sed
Date:  95-05-04 18:38:08 EDT
From:  NancyCels

I have a daughter who is labelled mentally retarded... i have no problem with
this "label" and neither does she... what I resent is being told that the
reason they lump all the sed and mr kids together in the same classroom is
that "by the time mr'd kids reach the 6th grade, they are all sed..." (that's
a direct quote!!)... while i have nothing against sed kids being in classes
with my daughter, i do object to their gross generalization which certainly
isn't true.  Has anyone else had a similar experience... or does anyone have
any feedback? thanksSubj:  Re:mr/sed
Date:  95-05-04 20:29:03 EDT
From:  SusanS29

I find that to be an *incredibly* ignorant statement.

In addition, I have real problems with this: "while i have nothing against
sed kids being in classes with my daughter..."

What doese "SED" stand for? Does it involve behavioral problems? If so, your
daughter does not have appropriate role models.

Many mildly-retarded children grow up to be productive adults who lead happy
lives. Just look at the kid who became an actor on "Life Goes on."

However, retarded or not, they have to understand basic behavioral norms, and
children learn from children.Subj:  Re:RE:IQ scores and disabilities
Date:  95-05-05 22:15:28 EDT
From:  LindaWalsh

I'm an Ohio parent and I agree with you.  Unfortunately, Ohio is now about
one year away from officially abolishing "Developmentally Handicapped"
and children whose IQs are between 70 to 80, and who cannot
show a severe discrepancy between IQ and achievement to qualify for
LD classification, will no longer be entitled to sp. ed. services.

Obviously this is a move to save money since these children comprise
a fairly high percentage of the current sp. ed. rolls.  However, Ohio will
pay the piper dearly when these children are turned out at 18 with no
ability to make a living due to lack of appropriate education.

Our new rules are expected to take effect school year 96/97.Subj:  Re:RE:IQ
scores and disabilities
Date:  95-05-06 13:25:49 EDT
From:  SusanS29

I see your frustration, but in Missouri those children never received special
education at all.Subj:  Re:RE:IQ scores and disabilities
Date:  95-05-06 17:48:45 EDT
From:  LindaWalsh

Susan,

Yes, I guess I didn't realize that until recently.  My child will not be
affected because she's is classified under Autism rather than Developmentally
Handicapped, but I do feel bad for the parents who have fought hard to get
help for their child and now -- poof!!!

Another issue is that Ohio presently uses a discrepancy formula of "2 SD
between ability and achievement" to establish eligibility for Specific
Learning Disability.  We're hearing now that they're going to chuck that in
favor of "doing it the way the other states do".

How do the other states do it?  What type of wording is typically used in
state rules and regs to define "severe discrepancy"?

Thanks.  Subj:  Re:RE:IQ scores and disabilities
Date:  95-05-07 00:39:47 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"We're hearing now that they're going to chuck that in favor of "doing it the
way the other states do"....

Each state can set its own methods, but 2 standard deviations is a *severely
high* limit. With luck they will make it easier. They used that standard in
California, and the result was that by the time kids got into special
education they were so far behind they didn't stand a chance of catching on.

Some states ignore perceptual issues completely when diagnosing learning
disablities (I find that incredible). They simply look at who is below grade
level in performance. While that will again provide help for those children
with IQ's between 70 and 80 I'm actually not in favor of that so long as
they're achieving where their potential would predict.

The problem with basing it strictly on achievement is that bright children
with LDs will get no help whatsoever. If a child with an IQ is getting C's on
grade-level work, no one will be concerned at all.Subj:  Re:RE:IQ scores and
disabilities
Date:  95-05-07 16:28:19 EDT
From:  LindaWalsh

"2 standard deviations is a *severely high* limit."

"They used that standard in California, and the result was that by the time
kids got into speical education they were so far behind they didn't stand a
chance of catching on."

Exactly!  Districts can buy enormous amounts of time which translates into
enormous amounts of money saved.

The draft of Ohio's new rules is now circulating for comment and they've
deleted the reference to 2 SD, but haven't replaced it with any criteria
whatever to define "severe" discrepancy.  This is a very dangerous state of
affairs since, if left as it now reads, would allow each individual district
to invent their own definition in their district plan.

Would anyone out there care to offer their state definition for defining
"severe discrepancy" for LD eligibility?  We are trying to offer some
suggested wordings to the committee to get some kind of an official
definition written into the draft before it becomes law.

Thanks.

Subj:  Re:RE:IQ scores and disabilities
Date:  95-05-08 00:02:45 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"This is a very dangerous state of affairs since, if left as it now reads,
would allow each individual district to invent their own definition in their
district plan...."

I don't think they'll be able to work it that way, because the state also
provides money (or they won't get any federal) and the state has to justify
the money ... so they will require standards. Also, although the feds allow
each state to set its own standards, they *do* require standards. I don't
think each district can set their own. In reality there will be differences
from district to district, but not to the degree you're describing here.

If they DO stay with such a plan I'm pretty sure it's challengeable.

"Would anyone out there care to offer their state definition for defining
"severe discrepancy" for LD eligibility?  We are trying to offer some
suggested wordings to the committee to get some kind of an official
definition written into the draft before it becomes law."

In Missouri they require 1 1/2 SD after third grade. The younger the child
the more flexibility they allow. They require, in addition, evidence that a
perceptual deficit is the most likely cause for the discrepancy. The
discrepancy is compared to the best estimate of the child's potential (IQ).
So, for instance, if the child has a language impairment, they compare to the
Performance score on the WISC. For my child, who had an *extreme* difference
between verbal and performance, they compared to her Verbal score.

This resulted in a couple of children whose IQ's hovered around 75 on my
caseload, and some complained about that. However, there was no doubt that
perceptual deficits were present as well, and the girl I'm thinking of now
performed significantly below even what an IQ of 75 would suggest (this kid
was in real trouble.)

Well, she's graduated from high school == and, against all odds, without
having a baby in the process -- AND is going to a vocational school to become
a practical nurse! NO ONE would have predicted that for her when she was in
first grade, believe me. It also suggests to me that ... they were right to
diagnose her.

I like this model. It allows those kids we think of as "slow learners" to
just be themselves and proceed at the pace that's right for them, but it
doesn't leave out my child and it doesn't leave out the one I just described.
No model is perfect, but I like this one the best.Subj:  Re:Susan: mr/sed
Date:  95-05-09 17:50:19 EDT
From:  NancyCels

Susan: sed stands for socially and emotionally disturbed.  it includes
children who are at times violent and who act out in class totally disturbing
any education that is going on...  I object to my daughter being classified
this way simply because she has reached a certain age and was previously
diagnosed w/a certain disability.  Some sed kids really need a more
restrictive environment...(my daughter was choked and had to be sent to the
hospital... this is in a nice suburban school district... she was also
threatened w/a knife, and physically assaulted) So, that's why i object to
the classification... does she have good role models? yes, at home.  At
school, she is surrounded by teachers who discourage her learning, and by
kids who are being warehoused by their parents... there has to be a way to
have a class for kids who DO want to learn!!!! And there has to be a way to
avoid them being physically assaulted!! NancySubj:  Re:Susan: mr/sed
Date:  95-05-09 23:36:53 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"I object to my daughter being classified this way simply because she has
reached a certain age and was previously diagnosed w/a certain disability."

You BETCHA! This is *completely* challengeable and I urge you to do it. First
work through the system of appeals your special education department has in
place (it should have been given to you with her IEP). If you get no
satisfaction, file a grievance with the Office of Civil Rights. OCR will
*not* like this...

"does she have good role models? yes, at home.  At school, she is surrounded
by teachers who discourage her learning, and by kids who are being warehoused
by their parents..."

That's not equivalent. OTHER students get good role models all day, and your
daughter is entitled to that.Subj:  Re:IQ?Where can you find friends
Date:  95-05-23 21:26:11 EDT
From:  Sydney1236

My nine year old daughter is EMR.  She's in second grade.  And recently we
added ritalin to help her focus.  It has been very successful.  She's much
more focused on her school studies and in a few short months gained a lot in
school. The teaching staff and myself are very pleased.

But she knows shes different.  She doesn't look it.  She's actually very
pretty.  But she knows that she's not like the other kids.

It breaks my heart.  And I'm not sure what to do.  Does anyone have any
ideas?Subj:  Re:IQ?Where can you find friends
Date:  95-05-27 17:29:51 EDT
From:  Amy Friend

RE:  Daughter who knows she's not like the other kids.

Yes, I do have a suggestion.  I have a gifted daughter and a low-I.Q. step
daughter who are both seven years old.  I have always told my daughter that
some people are good at some things and others are good at others.  My
daughter can read at a tenth grade level but isn't satisfied that she colors
well.  My step daughter is, like yours, a beautiful child with a winning
smile.  She is very slow at learning the normal things but she notices
EVERYTHING she sees, things my other daughter is very dense about!  So I
(genuinely) give credit where credit is due and tell them when they've done
something well.  They know I mean it and are proud of their assets.  (BTW,
visual things are very important to my step daughter and she very much LIKES
being pretty!)Subj:  Ecological Assessment
Date:  95-05-28 11:11:12 EDT
From:  Lovetofly4

I am an elementary principal of a PK-6 school in Oklahoma.  One of my
teachers is working on her certification as a psychometrist, and is
developing a Master's project on ecological assessment (used as part of an
evaluation of a student for potential eligibility for special services).  She
is having a very difficult time locating information on this specific topic,
even at our local university library or on ERIC.

If anyone has some leads for her on where she could look for current (or even
not-so-current) research on this topic, I'd greatly appreciate your help.
Also, if anyone can lead me to any other message boards or other o/l
resources that might address this subject, I'd appreciate it.  Please Email
(not post) me at Lovetofly4 if you can share some information on ecological
assessment that I can pass on to her.  Thanks!!    :)

Linda   (Lovetofly4)   :)Subj:  Re:Ecological Assessment
Date:  95-05-30 18:34:30 EDT
From:  SusanS29

I like the term but have never heard it used before. I suggest you look under
something like "classroom observations." That's what they're for -- to see
how the child functions in his or her "educational ecology." Maybe he's a
salamander trying to make it in a desert. Maybe he's a cactus trying to grow
in a swamp.Subj:  GIFTED ADD
Date:  95-06-07 08:08:10 EDT
From:  KAY46

My son, 17 years old and being treated for ADD since age 7 has just failed
his Jr. year in high school.  This child has an IQ of 165, SAT scores of 765
Math; 745 Verbal.  The school now wants to place him is a special ed school
and I am having a problem with wheather the special school will be able to
challenge him.  What I think should happen is maybe he should get his GED and
go directly to college, but he is not self-motivated and not as mature as
maybe he should be.  If anyone has any suggestions for me they would
certinely be appreciatedSubj:  I.Q.Scores: NewStandrd's Ohio
Date:  95-06-08 20:08:31 EDT
From:  PMazzolini

Used to be 80 and below.  New standards not yet adopted suggest 70 and below.
We're talking about kids in DH classes.Subj:  Re:I.Q.Scores: NewStandrd's
Ohio
Date:  95-06-08 20:32:23 EDT
From:  SusanS29

Ohio is *way* behind the times if they still classify students with IQ's of
80 as "developmentally handicapped." An IQ of 80 is no more statistically
unusual than an IQ of 120. While it's nice to have an IQ of 120, it's not at
all unusual. Neither is an IQ of 80.

They really should change this.Subj:  Re:RE:IQ scores and disabilities
Date:  95-06-10 19:50:12 EDT
From:  DaveKri

I am in West Virginia and have a 9 year old daughter in third grade with IQ
scores in the 70-80 range and evaluated by the school as having ADD.  Since
she is not eligible for special services, my wife and I are taking her to a
teacher run tutoring center to help with her reading and math skills (she has
been tested as being 2 years behind).  We are also spendng a considerable
amount of every evening trying to help her keep up with the homework.
Despite this considerable worthwhile effort, the school gas decided to retain
her in the third grade against the recommendation of two psychologists (we
are fighting it).

Many parents may not want their kids labelled anything but at this point I
don't care what label or category they want to put her in, I would just like
them to help her do the best she can.  It is a shame that some educators are
more proeoccupied with disqualifying students for programs than trying to
help the child.Subj:  Re:RE:IQ scores and disabilities
Date:  95-06-10 20:40:27 EDT
From:  Ratatat

<<I am in West Virginia and have a 9 year old daughter in third grade with IQ
scores in the 70-80 range and evaluated by the school as having ADD.  Since
she is not eligible for special services>>

Oh, yes she is!!!  If she is diagnosed with ADD...and she is...then she has a
right to reasonable special accommodations to address her needs.  This is
according to a federal civil rights law.  The law is called Section 504 of
the Rehabilitation Act.  Under this federal law the school is obligated to
provide your child with access an appropriate education.  She may, under 504
qualify for special education services as well (visiting the resource room at
the school).

You really need to find out what your rights are.  The school is taking
advantage or your not knowing...and in doing so are violating your child's
civil rights!!!

Contact your state's Protection and Advocacy Office and ask them for
information about education and civil rights laws that effect children in
public school.  Tell them what is happening and ask for thier recommendations
and help.  You may decide to file a complaint with the Office of Civil Rights
is your school refuses to comply.

Through the 504 the school should be formulating with you an educaion plan
specifically to address the needs of your child.  This is typically called an
IEP (Individualized Education Plan).  They are required to do this!

Here are some other resources for you to find more information about your
rights...and how to help meet your child's needs.

CHADD (Children and Adults with Attention Deficit Disorder).  Check for a
local chapter in your community.  If you have one nearby, find out what they
can do to help...and join!  If you can't find a local chapter, the national
headquarters can be reached at:  305-587-3700.

Also, I urge you to get the CHADD Educator's Manual.  It is about $12 with
shipping.  Get two.  One for you.  One for the School.  This way you are both
reading off the same page about what can be done to help your child in the
school setting, plus about the laws that protect her rights to an education.
You can order from CHADD's publisher (Casat) at 1-800-545-5583.

Call NICHCY (National Information Center for Children and Youth with
Disabilties) at 1-800-695-0285.  Ask them for all the pertinent information
they have on students with ADD, their rights under the law, and things that
can be done to help.  Also, ask for a resource list for your state.  They
will send you volumes...all free.

Keep posting...tell us more.  Your school is completely out of line!Subj:
Re:RE:IQ scores and disabilities
Date:  95-06-10 20:45:52 EDT
From:  Ratatat

<<Despite this considerable worthwhile effort, the school gas decided to
retain her in the third grade against the recommendation of two psychologists
(we are fighting it).>>

It sounds like your school really is nuts!!!  The National Association of
Elementary School Principals recommends AGAINST retention.  Retention does
not address the needs and weak areas of a student.  It adjusts the child to
the school, rather than the other way around.  And, there is plenty of
research that shows that it can cause long term harm in the majority of
retained students.

You are right to fight this.  I think that by law no school can *insist* on
retention.  They can strongly recommend, but they cannot force a parent to
hold their child back.  So, stick to your guns.  Call your state's Department
of Education and ask specifically what the regulations and policies are on
retention in your state.  Maybe you need to call your district office, but
find out!

It sounds like you have some good professionals working with you.  Let them
be your champions when you can.  This whole process that schools can put
parents through can be VERY exhausting.  Take a break and let the psych's do
some talking for you too (it sounds like they might already be doing so).
Maybe they could call the Superindendent's office and ask some well place
questions about the 504 law and retention policies in your district and in
your school???
  Subj:  Re:GIFTED ADD
Date:  95-06-11 09:45:53 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

Your note raised some important questions.  Children/adolescents who are
gifted and have ADD (+ or -) require a level of "coordination" that puts the
"T" in teamwork. This requires tailoring educational and social interventions
around the unique blend of needs, in a way that cuts across service
boundaries within the school. Services and strategies need to be integrated
so that weaknesses in self-management (such as distractibility, inattention,
and disorganization) are addressed in a manner that takes into account the
child's actual level of functioning (that includes cognitive, emotional,  and
interpersonal). With agony I have witnessed IEP meetings where services for
such students are set up, based upon on a "stereotype"  geared to the modal
child with ADHD (i.e., a wallclimbing 9 year old boy). Often the less visible
features such as distractibility, disorganization in approach, inattention to
details, weaknesses with expressive tasks, immaturity of social/emotional
coping style, resistance to "help" from adults not familiar with or sensitive
to the interpersonal needs of ADD/gifted children,  reactivity and avoidance
of traditional programming that is geared to behavior problem and learning
impaired children,  and excessive selectivity of academic interests (e.g.,
the only writing he'll attempt is short stories about fantasy characters)
need to be addressed explicitly in the IEP.  In your note, you mention
concern about a lack of challenge associated with special education
programing. To address this need you might want to obtain consultation from
the person in charge of services for gifted and talented children (or
whatever the term is in your area). In addition, gifted/ADD children often
experience difficulty coping with their own individual differences reflected
in the  rather large gap between their cognitive abilities (in the area of
their greatest strength) and their uneven, and inconsistent social/emotional
skills. Tthese children often know they are quite capable in some areas, yet
resent the heck out of the fact that they can't display their skills or
understanding with the ease of others. They can become resentful and quite
ornery about the fact that in some moments they fly with the eagles, yet
moments later are being treated like a kindergartner because they they lost
points for turning in the math homework without the name and date on it.  It
appears to me that we have a more well developed literature and tool bag for
intervention when addressing the behavioral management side of these
children,while the social and cognitive features remain an important but
underserved part of the equation. With the Gifted/talented staff person in
tow, I would
suggest a review of the IEP so that this perspective is factored into the
recommendations on the intervention portion of the plan. Specific, strategies
such as inclusion of a mentor /advocate is essential to help be a cheerleader
for their interests, a voice for their needs and a buffer against the
tendency of the school, especially in the upper grades to place too much
responsibility on the student for self management of their academic load. I
would not worry so much about the label on the programming as that the
"people" staffing the program understand the needs of your child and can help
them gain access to the particular mix of services and classes that will keep
them motivated and coming back for more. To this end, some kids respond to
arrangements where they can attend higher level or post-secondary courses in
selected areas while receiving academic support and remediation services
through the high school and special education program. I'm sure others
lurking out there can add to these ideas.

PeterCB55Subj:  Re:RE:IQ scores and disabilities
Date:  95-06-11 13:35:10 EDT
From:  SusanS29

I'm going to make a suggestion that may be unpopular.

Your daughter can have a good life with an IQ in that range -- however, that
good life isn't likely to start in school unless everyone concerned can
accept her for what she is and take the pressure off a little. That means --
no retention, and also, evaluating the tutoring very carefully. You want to
compensate for the ADD, but expecting her to work at grade level is an
unreasonable and possibly even cruel standard.

This does *not* mean your child is not eligible for help, though. Since she
has ADD she is eligible for support services *at school* to help her cope
with that aspect.

As for the retention, if all else fails file a complaint with the Office of
Civil Rights. It simply isn't reasonable to expect all students to be on
grade level. In addition there is *much* research clearly demonstrating that
retention does tremendous damage in the long run.

In this child's case -- look how hard she's worked, but she will still be
humiliated in front of the entire school, via retention, for not being good
enough.

It would be entirely different if the retention would bring a long-term gain.
But it won't give her an IQ of 100, and it won't make the ADD go away.Subj:
Dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-06-13 14:37:20 EDT
From:  Kris hock

Could someone please explain how a Standford-Benet or a Wipsi could determine
the I.Q. of a child with a receptive and expressive language disorder?  When
do the numbers really count?  Are there better evaluative tools out there for
children like this? My son is 5 years old and has never performed well on
these tests.
                                             Thanks,  KrishockSubj:
Re:Dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-06-15 02:05:39 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

The WPPSI-R and the Stanford-Binet 4th Ed, can generate usefull  scores,
whether or not a child has language problems. The underlying concern, I would
hope is not with the score, but with the intent of using a particular score
from either one of these measures to say something meaningful about a
partricular child with language problems. In this case, these measures
produce various types of summary scores some of which may reflect the impact
of your child's language processing and expressive difficulties, rather than
their actual understanding of specific concepts or problem solving skills.
For example, it is quite common that children with language processing and
expressive problems (or both) perform poorly compared to others their age on
those subtests that tap language skill in general and expressive skills in
specific. In addition, such children also tend to show differential ability
profiles favoring visual-spatial ability over measures loaded with tests
requiring verbal abilities (usually expressive). . This understanding does
not render the scores generated to be "less valid", only that they are likely
to reflect a certain amount of "noise" associated with the impact of language
deficits, rather than function as a reliable estimate of actual verbal
ability.  The issue of generating a "valid" estimate of overall cognitive
skill, can be handled in several ways. First, the level of type of language
dysfunction should be established with normed and validated measures of
language ability. Once this has been done, you can determine whether
traditional measures of verbal ability such as are included on both the
WPPSI-R and the Stanford-Binet will add to your understanding of this child
in a meaningful fashion.  If upon testing, you get suppressed verbal scores,
that seem to reflect the prevailing weaknesses in language processing, then
you can consider using the Performance summary scores from the WPPSI-R  as an
alternative indicator of broad intellectual ability. In the case of the
Stanford-Binet, there are several other measures, that assess visual-spatial
abilities as well as abstract reasoning skills that may provide alternative
reference points from which you can make inferences about a child's overall
intellectual functioning.  Given your child's relative youth, I might also
suggest that a measure such as the Kaufman Assessment Battery for Children be
considered as another measure of broad cognitive ability, as it requires much
less in the way of language processing and emphasizes visual reasoning skills
to a greater extent. Other means by which one can tap understanding of word
concepts with less of an expressive demand (as is common to the verbal
subtests from the WPPSI-R) involves the use of the Peabody Picture vocabulary
test (requires only a pointing response),  or one can go after
visual-reasoning skill leaving aside verbal skills altogether with a measure
like the Test of Nonverbal Intelligence. While this is a shortened summary of
possibilities, I hope that others may add to it and offer you the information
you are seeking.

PeterCB55Subj:  Re:Dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-06-16 19:41:04 EDT
From:  Bre5

To Peter CB55: I want to thank you for taking the time to give such a
complete answer to this question. I am saving your answer for future
reference. My son (age 7) also has expressive and receptive language
disorders, as well as auditory processing disorder and ADHD. He recently took
the Stanford Binet 4th ed. and there was a wide range on his scores between
verbal and visual abilities. He was also given the Wide Range Assessment of
Memory and Learning (WRAML) where there was also a very wide range of scores
between verbal and visual subtests.  He also took a test to determine
nonverbal problem solving and concept formation competencies and scored all
in normal range (Category test from the Reitan-Indiana Neuropsychological
Test Battery for Younger Children).
However, the psychologist said that although his intelligence is normal it
does not mean that he could succeed in school (without lots of help) because
school lessons are based on being competent in verbal areas, especially in
the lower grades before a child is a fluent reader. So finding out that a
child is average or above average in nonverbal areas does not mean a parent
or professional can sit back with a sigh of relief and stop worrying.
I am wondering if he should get retested in a year or two, this time while
taking Ritalin, which is really helping him in school to be a little more
successful.Subj:  Re:Dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-06-17 02:21:05 EDT
From:  SusanS29

You can get him retested, and the Ritalin may well hep him to some extent,
but I think this is also, very likely, a child with marked learning
disabilities. Ritalin won't help the learning disabilities, which stem from a
different source than the ADD does.

However, if the Ritalin helps him it is crucial. It will help him cope with
his weaknesses.

The best single thing you as a parent can do for this child is to help him
find a strength -- something he can feel he does well at. He doesn't have to
be the best in the world at it but he should be able to be proud of his
progress.

Since he has an uneven learning pattern and ADD, it will take multiple tries.
So, if he decides he likes music and takes up the saxophone, don't be
surprised if he drifts either to another instrument or away from music. He
might try tennis and end up disliking it, but enjoy golf (often these
children prefer sports where they compete with themselves more than others,
golf being a good example of that.)

Honor his achievements. If he takes up Karate and earns his green belt, buy
an extra one, and frame it. If he wins a trophy in baseball, display it where
visitors to the home will see it, not in his bedroom. Photograph him in his
uniform and send copies to relatives and friends out of town. *Treat* his
budding abilities as important achievements, and he will see them that way as
well.Subj:  Re:Dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-06-18 08:50:38 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

Re: SusanS29's note.
Children with combined learning and attention problems, in response to
Ritalin, may display enhanced performance on selected language measures.
Gains in short term working memory, reduced distractibility, improved
concentration and reduced impulsivity (effects associated with stimulant and
other related medications) can have a beneficial effect on a variety of
measures of language skill. Performance on measures of language
comprehension, such as those that require recalling, understanding and
executing directions, or expressive measures that require formulation of
sentence length material or repetition of a sentence spoken by someone else,
can be influenced for the better by medication. However, SusanS29 and others
have also mentioned  that attention problems can add to the burden
experienced by a child with both attention and learning problems. Hence, it
is worth asking the examiner (if both problems are suspected) how this might
have been reflected in the child's performance and their scores. While it is
unlikely that medication for attention problems can completely mitigate the
effects of a language deficit, they can certainly help, (assuming an
attention problem also exists).

PeterCB55Subj:  Re:Dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-06-18 14:06:19 EDT
From:  SusanS29

" While it is unlikely that medication for attention problems can completely
mitigate the effects of a language deficit, they can certainly help,
(assuming an attention problem also exists)."

Yes I agree... but it's the *attention* that will be helped and not any other
co-existing language deficit. That's why I say the Ritlalin will not act on
the learning disability. If we give Ritalin to children who have a learning
disability but not ADD, the learning disability will not ameliorate.

The combination of ADD and a learning disability is a double whammy for any
child. I think it's crucial that the ADD be dealt with as effectively as
possible so help for the LD can be maximized.

It sounds as if we're saying the same thing. :)Subj:  Re:Dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-06-18 20:10:02 EDT
From:  Bre5

To Peter and Susan,
Thanks for the extra insight. After I wrote the last message about my son's
IQ scores I finally received the written report from his new speech and
language testing that we had done in May. He did this testing while on
Ritalin, since he was diagnosed with ADHD in March and it greatly helps him
to complete his work and concentrate in school.
You were right, the Ritalin did not help his language problems. Even though
we thought he was improving, the tests showed him to have severe expressive,
severe receptive, and severe articulation disorders, as well as a word
retrieval problem and a poor ability to follow 2 step directions. This is a
good example of how Ritalin only helps with ADHD issues, not learning
disabilities.
We are trying to do all we can. He is going to go to an intensive speech
program this summer, along with phonics training. We are trying to help him
find things he could be good at. He has enjoyed playing soccer and baseball.
Also this summer he is going to learn  tennis (at a program where his brother
is one of the instructors) and golf, which he already plays with his father
quite a bit. It helps to get advice from all of you!Subj:  Texas MR standards
Date:  95-06-19 08:51:46 EDT
From:  Mitzicar

Texas students to be diagnosed as MR must have IQ scores on both verbal and
non-verbal measures "two standard deviations below the mean" (or  an IQ of 70
or below)  In addition they must score on an adaptive behavior scale at that
same level.Subj:  Dyaspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-06-20 11:58:28 EDT
From:  Kris hock

Thankyou so very much Peter for your carefully executed response on language
diabilities and I.Q.  I am still digesting the amount of information that you
supplied and am awaiting any more information that may help.  The other tests
that you suggested do seem to be more efficient.  Could a "play assessment"
perhaps show more cognitive insights than a "formalized test" ?.  At what age
are I.Q. test results truly considered as a valid assessment of a child's
cognitive level ?Subj:  Bayley Scales
Date:  95-06-28 02:04:12 EDT
From:  DanaRN

Our High Risk Infant Development program offered to do Bayley developmental
scales on my 20 month old twins. They were 33 weeks gestation--and I had
twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome. I have read a little about this test, but
I am concerned how valid it will be for my one twin who has spastic quad. CP,
and cortical vision impairment, secondary to periventricular leukomalacia. My
son does have "global" developmental delays, but I am concerned whether this
test would label him at this age as "mentally retarded." I will appreciate
any info. or opinion on this issue. Thanks alot!
Subj:  Re:Dyaspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-06-28 02:54:46 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

You asked about the age at which "IQ" tests are considered a "valid" estimate
of childrens intellectual functioning. From an empirical perspective, there
are several measures that have established validity (i.e., usefullness) at
least in some sense. These include (but are not limited to) the Bayley Scales
of Cognitive Ability, the McCarthy Scales of Children's Ability, the Kaufman
Assessment Battery for Children, the Wechsler Preschool and Primary Scales of
Intelligence - Revised, the Stanford Binet Scales of Intelligence-4th Ed, and
the Merrill-Palmer Scales among others. Each of these measures makes several
assumptions about the nature of intelligence (i.e., what it is and what it
isn't), then offers us specific tasks that help us evaluate the presence or
absence of those "essential" factors that comprise "intelligence". However,
it is worth asking, what are those skills that reveal "intelligence"? The
younger the child we are considering the less likely are the scores to be
either accurate or valid in making predictions about future functioning. All
of these instruments are better at describing those abilities that we think
are important for everyday functioning (i.e., the ability to understand and
express ideas, or the ability to analyze words, or to plan ahead and use
information to guide current activity). What these measures do is provide in
numerical terms a reference point for generating inferences about emerging
skills and assessing progress over time.They  do not do so well as special
"truth" tellers. They are more helpful when the questions being asked is
concrete and specific. In addition, test scores tend to take on greater
meaning when qualified by relevant clinical observations. For example, it is
important to know something about a child's language and attention skills
before you start making assumptions about the meaning of any set of scores.
Other factors worth noting are  frustration tolerance, emotional coping, as
well as experience and exposure to language, information and math concepts.
Some tests require more expressive responding while some require relatively
little. This is critical to know because those loaded with expressive tasks
may offer an unreliable view of the actual skills of a child with language
deficits. Thus, it is essential to see that tests used are not only
psychometrically sound (e.g., normed on a representative sample), but that
they are administered by someone versed in assessing children and child
development. Equally important are other qualitative impressions gained from
observation, play interview and so on, that can compliment data obtained from
testing. Many of these instruments can be used with children down to 2 and
1/2 years of age, but, that doesn't meant that they should, or that they are
the best one for the job. Generally, with preschoolers, knowledge of the
early childrearing environment and cultural factors should be taken into
consideration as well. Also, "older" measures of cognitive function tend to
emphasize analytical reasoning skills, while the newer one's tend to favor
examination of processing skills. Thus in selecting tests to be used, it is
worthwhile to use those that have sufficient item coverage for the age and
stage of skill development of your child. In addition, you might want to make
sure that qualitative data is considered along with the more traditional
measures of intellectual skill. Information from clinical/play assessments
are more likely to compliment than replace information gained from
standardized testing. I hope this is helpful to you.

PeterCB55Subj:  Re:Dyaspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-06-28 11:54:07 EDT
From:  Kris hock

Thanks again Peter CB55 !!  Someone had suggested the Leiter test, do you
know what this is and how it works?  Would this be a good evaluative tool for
a 5 year old child with extreme expressive problems and moderate receptive
problems ?  Could a receptive problem be confused with a word retreival
problem and  if so can this be distinguished by any particular test ?
Thankyou !!!!!!!!Subj:  Re:Dyaspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-06-29 03:50:31 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

The Leiter Test is actually a very heavy test (the kit is heavy and bulky).
It is primarily used as a nonverbal measure of problem solving skill. It
relies on demonstration and requires no spoken instructions nor verbal
responding by the child. Problem solving sets are demonstrated and then the
child must continue on their own with each set. It's value as an evaluation
instrument is going to depend upon what the question is, and the extent to
which this or any test for that matter,  will likely to add to your
understanding of your child. That may depend on what has already been done,
what additional information is needed, and what hypotheses are being
examined. It may be helpful if you are seeking a way to assess reasoning
skills and you want a minimum of "noise" from language related factors. Other
measures that might be usefull in this regard are the Test of Nonverbal
Intelligence, the Abstract-Visual Reasoning Cluster from the Stanford Binet
4th ed, the Kaufman Assessment Battery for Children, or the Performance
subtests from the WPPSI-R or WISC-III.

I would not however, shy away from using a measure simply because it
involves language processing or output. You can learn alot by systematically
varying the requirements of a task. For example, open ended vocabulary
measures that require a child to formulate and express ideas involve
relatively more processing and expressive demands, while picture vocabulary
tasks or tests like the Peabody Picture Vocabulary test requires only a
pointing response and no verbal output, while requiring a child to
discriminate the correct picture from among three other foils. As expressive
demands diminish and visual and contextual cues are increased it is expected
that children with language problems will show a corresponding increase in
performance. Carefull assessment of children with language deficits should be
able to provide you with clues about the extent to which everyday social and
academic tasks need to be structured to support their optimal level of
language functioning and to facilitate expression of their ideas in the most
effective manner possible.

Can a receptive problem be confused with a word retrieval problem? Yes.
If you mean receptive as in understanding of language concepts. It is likely
that a child's ability to organize and interprete spoken instructions or
language concepts embedded in a sentence will be highly dependent upon their
ability to access relevant information about those concepts (such as examples
of a concept, based on personal experience). Although it may be a bit of a
chore to try to dissociate the two skills with various tests, you can for
example, sample word retrieval skills with a word fluency task, and then
contrast performance on this type of task with performance on measures of
receptive language skill while varying the level of involvement by verbal
short term-working memory (i.e., picture tasks that provide a menu of correct
and incorrect choices, on the one hand and action tasks that require
demonstration of understanding or production of verbal responses on the other
hand). However, if attention as well as verbal memory skills are impaired it
is a likely bet that receptive language skills will also be negatively
effected as these skills interact and support the development of
comprehension and expressive skills. If you don't attend to relevant aspects
of spoken information and you also have trouble storing and retrieving that
information efficiently, you are more likely to have trouble making accurate
inferences if the data stored in your hard drive is randomly selected and
full of holes, and you can only pull out half of the information you stored
in the first place.
I hope this wasn't too confusing. Your questions were interesting and
certainly challenging.
PeterCB55Subj:  Re:Dyaspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-06-29 18:50:32 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"... tests like the Peabody Picture Vocabulary test..."

This test was (I'm sure you know) as an IQ test a couple of decades ago. I
was involved in evaluating a child for special education placement in 1974.
The child had no verbal skills, and played house with her kindergarten
classmates by being the family dog. Everyone thought she was retarded, but I
didn't think a retarded child would come up with such a creative solution.

So I gave her an auditory discrimination test that used the same format as
the Peabody. the auditory discrimination test had a great advantage in that
it included a period of teaching the child how to do the test.

Then I gave the child the Peabody. While she scored in the 40's and 50's on
the WISC, she scored 106 on the Peabody, indicating good receptive language
strengths.

Until then I hadn't been able to convince the diagnostic committee to do an
in-depth language evaluation, but after that result they did...

I had the great good fortune to retest the child seven or eight years later,
when she was in junior high. She had good language skills, was in a resource
room (in regular classes most of the day), doing average to slightly-above
average school work in most subjects, and was a school cheerleader.

I certainly don't have Peter's expertise, but I know it's worth the search to
find a variety of tests that will approach a child's ability from a variety
of angles.Subj:  Dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-03 11:54:29 EDT
From:  Kris hock

Once again I have to thank you Peter for sharing what is obviously a great
wealth of information!! I also thankyou for finding my questions to be
challenging and interesting, my son's school has found me to be .... well,
they have asked me to back-off.  Considering the conflict between what they
see, what his doctor's see and most important, what I see, backing off is
impossible but it is difficult to approach without some knowledge other than
personal instinct and observation.
Susan, I found what you wrote about the Peabody and the auditory
discrimination test to be very fascinating!  My son scored low on the Peabody
but low and behold he answered 39 out of 50 correct on an auditory
discrimination test performed by his audiologist.  I'm not sure of the format
of the Peabody but I witnessed the auditory disc.  There was a page with 6
pictures, all having similar sounding words.  He was asked to identify "a"
word, he would point to the picture and the audiologist would then continue.
I brought this information down to his school and nothing seems to be
happening with it.  What is an "in-depth language evaluation" ? What does it
consist of ? Your comments about that child's junior high school years were
certainly impressive!!  You turned around her whole life, on behalf of this
child who probably never realized the impact that you had, I say
Thankyou.Subj:  Re:Dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-04 00:41:03 EDT
From:  SusanS29

I don't know if the child realized it but the parents did. It's so rare so
see first-hand the results of efforts. (By the way I was criticized by my
supervisor for doing that... probably because she was convinced the child was
retarded -- as just about everyone was up to that point).

The only thing low scores on the PPVT and the auditory discriminaton test
mean are low scores on those two tests. You can't draw any valid conclusions
from just those two.

as for the indepth language evaluation (Peter -- help! -- grin) -- I'm not an
expert on language evaluations, but I know that many children have subtle
language problems that go undiagnosed because people don't know to do the
language testing. I'll tell you another story. I had a student -- I'll call
him Barry -- who had CP, and learning disabilities, and was just the sweetest
kid in the world. He also wasn't real bright.

I was talking with Barry one day and realized that I was talking him
*exactly* as I did with my two-year old. He was trying to tell what had
happened on a TV show the night before. He'd hit a wall. I'd supply the
missing word, and he'd go on until he hit the next wall... he'd describe, and
try to explain the action, until I guessed the word he was missing, and then
he'd go on.

I described this to the speech pathologist, who sat Barry down with a tape
recorder and had him relate to her an episode of M*A*S*H, his favorite show.
She was headed into the hospital for a hysterctomy and faced an extensive
recovery. While she was recovering, she analyzed Barry's tape.

Barry got put in a special language program, ended up graduating from high
school (something no one thought he could do) and then went on to junior
college. And the was thought, also, to be nearly retarded. The language
specialist called what he did "mazing."

See -- I'm not an expert on language disabilities, but when I see any kind of
uneven language skills I do think a language evaluation should be done. The
varieties of language problems are extensive, but most have effective
solutions.Subj:  Re:Dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-04 08:59:10 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

Conflicting views, are for better or worse a necessary by product of
teamwork, especially when groups of adults gather to discuss and decide on
services for children. As a parent "backing off" is not an option given the
importance of your job where your children are concerned. However,
information regarding the disorder in question, the assessment process, the
special education qualification process and format, as well as an
understanding of how to function as a team member is helpful, and can often
make a difference, usually for the better. Nonetheless, some conflicts are
more important and/or represent more significant differences with respect to
decisionmaking than others. Would you be willing to clarify what you see as
the nature of the conflict? as it's hard to respond without additional data.

On a related point. You mentioned that information from the audiological
evaluation was "brought down to his school and nothing happened with it". It
may be worth your while to contact the audiologist to find out how
"important" that information and any related recommendations may be for
programming. Not all assessment findings and recommendations, are created
equal and some are clearly more important (i.e., worth following through on
to the point of implimentation or rejection for an equivalent alternative)
than others. Based on their response to your inquiry then you might be in a
better position to lobby the school for follow-up.
PeterCB55
Subj:  dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-06 11:31:46 EDT
From:  Kris hock

" Would you be willing to clarify what you see as the nature of the conflict?
as it's hard to respnd without additional data."

"conflicting views, are for better or worse a neccessary by product of
teamwork, especially when groups of adults gather to discuss and decide on
services for your children."

The conflict here is between the "group of persons who have gathered to
dicuss services" and the "outside" professionals who see my son .  His
private speech pathologist, whom he has been seeing for two years, thinks his
receptive problems are moderate at worst, his speech pathologist at school
thinks his receptive language is extremelely poor.  His school attempted a
word discrimination test but dismissed it because he "could not understand
the directions".  The audiologist administered a very similar test with no
difficulty at all.  His neurologist sees no cognitive problems but a word
retrieval problem as compared to a receptive problem.  The school sees low
scores on measues of cognitive ability.
I have always believed that conflict is healthy but this is confusing.  As
his parent I have to go with what I see and feel, and that is also in
conflict with the school.  My son also has a constitutional growth delay
which puts his bone age somewhere around 3 1/2 to 4 years of age.  The
endocronologist says there is a large overlap with growth delay and speech
and motor difficulties and it is his feeling that some of my sons problems
will be outgrown.  He is not in a 5 year old body in all practical sense.
The school says he is not delayed but disabled and could level out at any
time.
I could keep going but I think you get the picture. Perhaps you can answer
that question about the nature of the conflict,  I believe it is confusion.
By the way, yes, the school has copies of all these outside reports.
Thanks again!! Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-06 15:46:50 EDT
From:  SusanS29

Here's what you do.

You take *all* the opinions and heap them in a pile.

Then you analyze those opinions without regard to their source (so it's not
"territorial" in nature) looking for two things:

1) what is the most significant educational need likely from these results
and

2) what is the best possible long-term prognosis?

Then you treat the child aggressively, using the most serious diagnositic
implications, and setting targets for remediation based on the best possible
long-term prognosis. Sure, he *may* level off. Then again (especially with
effective language therapy) he may not.

NO ONE KNOWS. In that case, we must assume the best possible outcome, and
then work to achieve it.

In a couple of years he can be retested and then goals can be adjusted as
appropriate.

The heck with consensus on diagnosis. You aren't going to get it. You can
still make an intelligent interim plan for this child.Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and
I.Q.
Date:  95-07-06 15:47:17 EDT
From:  SusanS29

PS:

Peter what *excellent* questions!Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-09 03:30:49 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

I'd agree that confusion is likely present and in fact is the "common" cold
of special services teams. Confusion, not only in terms of what to call "it",
but perhaps more importantly, confusion about what to do about "it" can
render such teams at times in a state of near if not real paralysis. SusanS29
has a good point to make in suggesting that it isnt' worth it to get
overfocused on what to label the entity that interferes with your child's
learning, it is essential that you work to get agreement on a place to start
and on the interventions that are at minimum, essential. With younger
children, variability in test performance across people, time and settings is
quite common, and rather than try and spend all your remaining free time
trying to figure out the "true" meaning of various test scores, it is more
worthwhile to just accept that they perform better or sometimes worse,
depending upon whom they are with, what is asked of them and whether they
feel like performing. I often learn rather startling things from parents and
school staff when I take time to meet with them and discover that the kid in
my office who couldn't/wouldn't say more than three words to me for several
hours, despite my standing on my head and pleading for longer utterances, can
actually carry on quite well when working with Mr/Ms, So&So who the child
sees weekly. The point is that these situations are not in and of themselves
necessarily a "sign that something is wrong with your child or the
professionals, rather,  the starting place is simply a collection of
competing and sometimes (frankly) contradictory impressions. When confronted
with these situations it is critical  (at least I hope so) to figure out in a
systematic fashion (SusanS29 offerred you on method) where to start clearing
out the necessary developmental and environmental "noise" and separating it
from the actual clinical "signal".
The first steps should minimally involve serious and aggressive remediation
and training in areas of key weakness, with methods fit to the childs actual
level of functioning within the school. Often, a few well focused
interventions can tell you a lot more than a large number of well intended
but half seriously delivered ones. In addition, use of a short horizon (i.e.,
3 months) with informal progress review meetings can really aid in figuring
out if the initial steps are yielding gains that were hoped for.
Again, some patience (but not too much) is helpful, because your child has a
big job to do. They have to teach everyone how best to work with them andshow
them what works and what doesn't.
PeterCB55Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-09 12:22:53 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"Often, a few well focused interventions can tell you a lot more than a large
number of well intended but half seriously delivered ones."

AMEN! All the test scores in the world, for instance, won't tell you which
approach "rings that child's bells." And if you can manage to do that--if you
can get him or her enthusiastically engaged in an approach, and get results
that allow him or her to feel successful, it doesn't matter whether that
approach meets the theories developed from testing.

"In addition, use of a short horizon (i.e., 3 months) with informal progress
review meetings can really aid in figuring out if the initial steps are
yielding gains that were hoped for."

This is another *really* important point. We traditionally write IEPs for one
year, but that's all it is -- tradition. If we can see after three months
(you can't always) that an approach simply isn't working, we need to be
flexible enough to ditch it and try something else.

I hear stories from parents whose kids have made almost no gains in three
years. When that happens it's time to evaluate what was done during those
three years. It *really* shouldn't be the same approach for three years, not
if the child is receiving support services.Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-12 11:12:38 EDT
From:  Kris hock

"The first steps should minimally involve serious and agressive remediation
and training in areas of key weeknesses, with methods fit to the child's
actual level of functioning within the school.  Often a few well focused
interventions can tell you alot more than a large number of well intended but
half seriously delivered ones."

The child's level of functioning within the school is not consistant with his
level of functioning anywhere else.  His demeanor changes as soon as he is
dropped off at school, I witness this everyday.  When asked a question by a
teacher or an aid he will not answer and it does appear as if he doesn't
understand.  If I had not been speaking with him on the same topics that are
presented to him at school,(during these times) I would most likely agree
with the staff that he doesn't really understand .  Yesterday he dictated to
me what I should write in his notebook for his weekend update.  We had gone
camping with a child in his class and his family.  This morning when one of
his teachers who was not their yesterday asked him about his trip, he simply
wouldn't answer.  He looked at her and smiled but would not respond.  This is
someone he sees everyday.  The child we camped with was very much like this
but without the eye contact, his parents feel thet he just doesn't process
appropriately.  I have to wonder whether my son is "picking up" behaviors
that he may feel are correct for school because the other kids do this.
Children do learn from one another and don't want to be different from each
other.  Over the weekend I found out that most of the parents of the children
in his class do not think that he belongs there, that he should be in a
higher functioning class.  I did not present my thoughts on this but merely
listened to what has obviously been a conversation that has taken place on
more than one occassion.  Why is it that the parents see what I see but the
teachers do not.  I did have to tell my son on more than one occassion over
the weekend that he was expected to respond to me as he normally does and
what his friend did was his business.  He then responded appropriately.  I
see this same behavior when I pick him up from school wherein I've asked him
"did you leave your words at school?"  He generally laughes and that snaps
him out of it.  I guess what I'm trying to say with all this is that his
level of functioning at school seems to be highly influenced by who he is
around and what is truely expected of him.  If no one calls him on these
"lapses" for lack of a better word, than why would he respond any
differently?  I think that this is probably the crux of the difficulty.

What do you see as a "few well focused interventions"?  This is a rather
generalized statement.  Could you please elaborate on this?

As far as the IEP goes, he should be exposed to letters of the alphabet as he
will be attendeing kindergarten in the fall.  I have asked that this be done
and have stated that even if he recognizes the first five letters of the
alphabet that would be great.  I was told that this was too much to ask of
him.  I disagree.  I have been working with him at home but it just seems
ridiculous that it can't be worked on at school.  This is not on his IEP and
I have been considering a meeting to revise it so that it is done but once
again I'm a bit leary of the implications.

Thanks Guys !!!!!!  Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-14 01:05:54 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

Kris in your last message you stated, " why is it that the parents see what I
see, but the teachers do not?"

 For younger children in general and younger children with learning/language
problems more specifically, the likelyhood of setting specific patterns of
social interaction is high. That is, assuming your son experiences himself to
be somewhat "out of synch with the class setting" and he is relating with
adults (teachers and school staff) who do not have close emotionally
reinforcing relationships (as I suspect you might) with him, it isn't really
that surprising that he would "produce" so little at school compared to home.
Frankly, children with learning difficulties often take many more learning
risks in the safety of close emotionally secure relationships (which in many
cases involves parents and siblings) than in an institutional setting, where
staff often make task related demands but have limited time, resources or
occasionally expertise to "tune in" to the individual needs of a child.
Alternatively, just as many children tend to explore and experiment with
first learning steps in the company of teaching staff  where there may be
less emotional charge on the success/failure continuum. For many reasons (I
suspect)  school staff occasionally emphasize task engagement and task
completion while giving relatively less attention to the significance of
establishing emotionally supportive and trusting relationships as a first
step in facilitating risk taking for children with language and other types
of learning or attention problems.

Rather than get lost with staff in a contest over who can best support the
validity of their perceptions, it may be more usefull for school staff to
consider making a home visit, and vice versa for you to make an unobtrusive
school visit and then have all parties meet to share what each has learned
about those differences. These differences are of more value if you and othrs
can learn from them, vs. argue over whose situational reality is more real.

As for "well focused interventions" I might consider an objective that
includes encouraging his teachers to take a a block of time and explore every
way they can think of to stimulate motivation, interest, investment and
engagement in learning activities, with the idea being to develop a
repoirtoire of high interest activities into which "learning" tasks can be
imported and blended with his interests.  Another type of activity might be
to have him take time with a designated staff person on a regular basis at
school to create a portfolio that can be offered to other teachers that
includes pertinent information about who he is, describes his world and his
view of his personal strengths and weaknesses, his learning interests and any
other helpful tidbits about him which describes how he likes to learn,
activities that encourage his interest and those that should be avoided. The
idea is to work with him where he is now and to help him teach the school
staff how to borrow from the strengths within the home setting to make
learning more supportive and worth the effort. My apologies if this seems
rather vague, but perhaps others can add their own  ideas or clarify pieces
of this.
PeterCB55Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-14 19:23:17 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"What do you see as a "few well focused interventions"?  This is a rather
generalized statement.  Could you please elaborate on this?"

I'm sorry, I can't. It would be highly individual. If I knew and had worked
with your child, had seen the reports, etc., I could make some
recommendations.Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-14 19:26:07 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"I have asked that this be done and have stated that even if he recognizes
the first five letters of the alphabet that would be great.  I was told that
this was too much to ask of him.  I disagree.  I have been working with him
at home but it just seems ridiculous that it can't be worked on at school. "

I would have to know their reasons. I have had parents request goals for
their children that clearly the child wasn't ready for, but it's also
possible they underestimate what he's ready to do. Could they do a trial of
some of these activities? Objectives are supposed to state how they'll be
measured. Write a couple of short term goals, such as "work on letter
recognition for two months" and then specify how his progress will be
measured. In two months, if he's ready for this it will be evident. As I say,
I can't say if this is appropriate for your child or not, but it's one way to
answer your questions about it.Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-19 16:52:13 EDT
From:  Kris hock

Peter, I think your response to my last note was extremely enlightening.  I
have been trying to get the school to allow me to "observe" a full day at
school for quite a while now.  They won't let me.  Last week I did sit in on
an O.T. session.  The teacher said that my son had never done the tasks set
forth for him that day before although she had been working on these things
for awhile.  I suggested that perhaps my presence had something to do with
it.  I later spoke to the psychologist and told him what had happened and
once again asked if I could please sit in for a day and view him.  I made it
very clear that I was not there to critique the teachers but to observe my
sons behavior so that perhaps we could find out what was going on with him.
I further pointed out that the worse thing that could happen was that his
behaviors would not change.  They held a team meeting.  The next day I was
advised that I could not observe because it was their opinion that his
abilities in O.T. were coincidental with my being there and he suceeded in
his tasks only because he had been working on them for awhile.  I took the
liberty of giving a copy of your 7/14 transmiittal to the school on Friday on
Friday.  Today is Wed. and I have not heard anything and do not expect to.
He is almost finished with the program and will be moving on in Sept.  I
would like to share the information that you and Susan have been so great in
affording me with his new school. It is the closest thing to a portfolio that
I can come up with.  I ask your permission to do so.

Susan, I have no idea what their reasons are for not working on these skills
(alphabet).  I was simply told that they did not believe that he could
recognize 5 letters by the end of the summer.  I raised this question before
the regular school year ended and asked if this could be attempted over the
summer.  It has not been.  I have been trying to do this myself using
hooked-on-phonics.  He enjoys this activity and have finally developed a
routine with it.  Everyday we spend a little time with it.  Last night he
went through the alphabet about 5 times, I gage how much I do with him by how
receptive he is to it and how long he wants to do it for.  I don't want to
burn him out.  If we go through the alphabet once, that's O.K. too.  The idea
is to make him recognize letters, I'm not as concerned with him remembering
each letter name (although that would be great !!) as I am with him
recognizing that these are letters, they make up words.  He is big right now
on " reading" to me.  He doesn't want me to read to him as much anymore but
totally enjoys" reading" the pictues to me.  Correct me if I am wrong bit
isn't that a pre-reading skill?  Isn't that an indicator that the child is
ready to begin to learn the basics to reading?  He loves books and always
has.  I have explained to him that letters make up words and that if he
learns the letters that soon he will be able to read the words. This makes
him very happy and seems to work as a motivational tool on days when he isn't
as motivated as others.  Does anyone have any good ideas on different methods
I can use ?  It has become painfully obvious that his school will not work
with him and I am only spinning my wheels.  With less than 3 weeks left I
think I'll put my energies into teaching him myself.  I am concerned that
some of the behaviors that they have allowed him to get awy with this year
will surface again next year whenthe challenges get rough.
( I realize this message is all over the place-please bare with me
!!!!!!!!!!)
                                                  Thanks !!!Subj:
Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-19 21:19:52 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"He doesn't want me to read to him as much anymore but totally enjoys"
reading" the pictues to me.  Correct me if I am wrong bit isn't that a
pre-reading skill?"

Not necessarily. It could just be play-acting, and isn't a solid indication
that he's ready to read. It may mean only that he enjoys being read to.

Perhaps your presence there was coincidental, but clearly -- for whatever
reason -- these people feel threatened. I think if you're going to get
anywhere you're going to have to find a way to ease that.

On the other hand, they could spend five minutes a day on letter recognition,
and if he's ready to learn, he'll likely learn them... so I think there's no
need for them to dig their heels in.

After all... if they do it, and it turns out he *isn't* ready to learn it,
perhaps they'll gain more credibility with you... possible? It's a win-win
situation.Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-21 09:20:41 EDT
From:  Kris hock

"After all... if they do it, and it turns out he *isn't* ready to learn it,
perhaps they'll gain more credibility with you...possible ?  It's a win - win
situation."

I totally agree with you.  It is a win- win situation for everyone involved
most importantly, my son.  I don't know how to ease the situation at this
point and wonder if it's worth it at this late date.  No matter what I've
said or how I say it, it doesn't seem to make a difference. I wrote them a
letter (which I thought was less confrontational ) asking them why my input
means so little ?  I also asked them why they felt so threatened by me.  I
realize that was a bold step to take but I thought perhaps that they did not
realize how this all appeared.  I did this a week ago and have had no reply.
I gave alot of thought to that letter, discussed it with my husband who
agreed with all the ideas presented and together we sent it in.
It's difficult enough for a child with special needs.  I don't understand why
the whole process has to be made more difficult by what appears to be "ego"
problems.  I'm made to feel that "I'm just a mother, what do I know ?"  I
refuse to be intimidated.  I'm the expert on this child, not the
professional, the expert. I also made a point of asking them if they could
imagine what we could have accomplished together for this child.

Oh Well.... damn the torpedos, full speed ahead !!!     Subj:  Re:dyspraxia
and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-22 14:06:33 EDT
From:  SusanS29

All districts are required by federal law to have an appeals process. Unless
you have exhausted that appeals process, you haven't done everything you can.
Unless your letter was part of that formal appeals process, legally speaking
they can brush it off.

Once you've exhausted the appeals process, if they haven't convinced you
they're right you can file a complaint with the Office of Civil Rights.

They have a moral obligation to stick to their guns if they're certain
they're right (because if they are, that *is* what is best for your child).
You have a moral obligation to stick to yours if you're certain you're right.

You *both* have a moral obligation to listen to each other.

That's why we have an appeals process. Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-24 11:46:02 EDT
From:  Kris hock

Is there still a point to an appeals process when he has less than 3 weeks
left in preschool and is heading towards kindergarten in another school ?
My son's preschool called on Friday and requested to do an in home visit.  I
have to wonder what the purpose is considering at that point he will only
have 10 days left of schooling there.  I tried to contact the social worker
this morning but he wasn't in.
In your learned opinion what is neccessary for me to bring to his CSE ?  I
don't mind telling you that I am getting extremely nervous about this whole
thing and could use some clarity on what to hone in on.  I realize that you
don't  "know" the child but neither does the "new school" and apparantly from
what has been going on all year neither does the "old school".
                                              Thanks !!!!
Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-24 20:29:37 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"My son's preschool called on Friday and requested to do an in home visit."

There is no need to do a home visit in order to determine what a child needs
educationally.Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-25 11:08:55 EDT
From:  Kris hock

"There is no need to do an in home visit to determine what a child needs
educationally."

I spoke to the social worker this morning and he told me it was simply a new
procedure that they are adopting.  This was something they used to do with
the preschool crew and have reinstated.  I asked how this could be beneficial
to my son with 10 days of school left and he responded that perhaps it might
help at his CSE. A little later in the conversation he told me that they had
very little to do with his CSE and that things were between me and the
district.  I'm honestly a bit sceptical and wonder what the right thing to do
is.  My husband is dead set against it because he feels that it should have
been done earlier in the year if they felt it could really have helped with
his interventions, he believes they are just trying to cover their bases to
avoid criticism.   I'm trying to remain as open and positive as possible but
I have to wonder, WHAT'S THE POINT  !!                 Could my husband be
right or just paranoid !!!Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-26 01:33:04 EDT
From:  PeterCB55


To Kris Hock.
I'd consider sticking with what is essential as concerns observations and
visitations and so on. It isn't clear at all from the information you have
provided that it will provide staff at the preschool with meaningful
information, given the very brief time they have left to work with him.
Instead, I'd concentrate on helping him to finish out his time with the
preschool in a reasonable and positive fashion. Then, given the job ahead of
you, I would encourage you and your husband to put your efforts into seeking
appropriate help from the staff at the kindergarten program your son is going
to. In addition, I would be reasonably straight forward with them (i.e.,
staff at the elementary school) that you have had concerns about the apparent
differences in your son's willingness to engage learning activities,
depending upon the setting and the person he is working with. I would also
ask them to help you prioritize learning goals that reflect current needs as
best they can and provide you with whatever ideas/ information they can to
assist you as his parent to support his learning efforts at home. At this
point, the task is to help your son make
a s good a transition to kindergarten as can be had, and to then get settled
in on working on a limited number of specifically defined learning tasks that
you and the staff at school can (hopefully) work together on. Obviously,
there is still much to be learned by all parties, here, so we have to keep
asking the question, is there sufficient clarity to proceed, and are the
plans as agreed upon reasonable, relevant, likely "doable" given your best
understanding of your sons abilities at the present time.

PeterCB55Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-26 23:37:26 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"I spoke to the social worker this morning and he told me it was simply a new
procedure that they are adopting.  This was something they used to do with
the preschool crew and have reinstated."

It still sounds very strange to me. I would ask them why they're reinstating
it, what method they use for recording and evaluating the information they
gather in this way, how many other home visits they have scheduled. I think
you'll find that he hems and haws and leads you away from the idea of a home
visit.

Home visits as part of an educational evaluation were ended as the policy of
open school records became more established. Parents discovered that often
people untrained in observing and interpreting home life -- teachers, for
instance -- drew all sorts of unwarranted assumptions about the child's
family, family life, lifestyle, upbringing, etc.

On the other hand, if for instance a parent believes a child performs at a
higher level at home than at school it might be warranted -- but only if the
home visit is made by someone skilled in determining *that sort of
educational issue.* In all liklihood, that person isn't a social worker.

It still seems peculiar to me, and personally I would refuse a home visit
unless they could justify it in *educational* terms.Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and
I.Q.
Date:  95-07-27 07:26:18 EDT
From:  Ratatat

<<It still seems peculiar to me, and personally I would refuse a home visit
unless they could justify it in *educational* terms.>>

Susan, I agree!  I think this sounds like an intrusion into someone's
privacy, and unwarrented to boot.  If this were me, I would refuse it flat
out!Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-27 11:08:52 EDT
From:  Kris hock

I'm relieved to hear that you all are in agreement.  My husband and I did in
fact turn down the home visit because we simply did not see how it would
benefit our son.  To be honest, if it was requested earlier in the year, we
probably would have gone for it in hopes that it would bridge the gap between
us and the school.  I still believe that my observation of him in the school
enviroment would be highly beneficial in that I could see first hand what
kind of behaviors he is exhibiting and perhaps use it as a frame of referance
in case these surface again next year.  As I stated in a previous message, I
am concerned about  these detrimental behaviors arising in the future because
they were never dispelled in the past.  If a child is permitted to  "get
away" with it, they'll continue.  He's been given carte-blanche all year.
Any suggestions ?
( These behaviors are none disruptive and only harm him, which I suppose is
why he's been allowed to get away with it coupled with their belief that he
can not do what ever it is that he's asked.  All year they have said he has
been inconsistant, one day he knows, the next he does not, so rather than
assume he knows they have assumed he doesn't - this makes no sense to me.
How can one fake knowing something?)
     Please clarify - if possible.                        Thanks !!Subj:
Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-27 15:40:19 EDT
From:  Ratatat

If I remember correctly, didn't the school refuse to allow you to observe in
the classroom?

One year I needed to have my daughter observed and called in one of the
people from the district's special education office to observe a day of
school for me.  I learned quite a lot from her report.  Is this something you
could do?

Also, if this is a public school, I don't think that they can keep you out of
the classroom, especially if you have a viable reason (meeting your child's
needs - finding out what's going on).Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-27 23:11:54 EDT
From:  SusanS29

"To be honest, if it was requested earlier in the year, we probably would
have gone for it in hopes that it would bridge the gap between us and the
school."

Earlier in the school year it would have looked a whole lot less suspicious.

"I still believe that my observation of him in the school enviroment would be
highly beneficial in that I could see first hand what kind of behaviors he is
exhibiting and perhaps use it as a frame of referance in case these surface
again next year."

Waitaminute... I'm not sure I recall accurately--they wanted to observe in
your home but you're not supposed to observe at school? Is this really how it
was?Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-28 09:02:19 EDT
From:  Kris hock

"...I ...called one of the people from the district's srec. ed. dept. to
observe a day at school for me. ........ If this is a public school, I don't
think they can keep you out of the classroom..."

This is not a public school.   Although publicly funded, to a degree, it is
still a private school.  I don't see what the people from disrtict (which is
where he is going) can tell me about him at this point, they don't know him
at all.  I would assume they would probably report the same behaviors that he
is exhibiting.  He was visited by district about 4 months ago for a short
period of time and then discussed at a meeting afterwords.  I made sure at
that point that my feelings were known and my questions put on the table.
District will base their opinions on the educational reports but hopefully my
opinions will carry some weight.

 Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-28 09:12:55 EDT
From:  Kris hock

"..... they want to observe at your home but you're not supposed to observe
at school?  Is this really how it was?"

In a word, Yes.
I was permitted to observe in the playground and during an O.T. session.  The
playground was useless and the O.T. session proved invaluable.  All the
things he supposedly could not do he did do in my presence, so I again opened
up the question of me viewing a whole day and was told he performed his tasks
in O.T. coincidentally with me being there, therefore it was not warrented.

Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-28 21:09:17 EDT
From:  Ratatat

Kris,

My daughter too is in a private school, that has no public funding.  However,
the district must make available all of its services to the taxpayers in the
district regardless where they attend school.    The person who observed my
daughter had a master's level degree in special education, and some knowledge
of the school - and a lot of knowledge about norms of classroom behavior.
She was inobtrusive in her observations and took great notes.  Her insights
were a very helpful piece of the puzzle.

At one point, later, I requested to be allowed to observe my daughter's class
- though not for a whole day, and we sort of *colored* it as me going in to
be a teacher's helper.  Thank God the school cooperated this one time (mostly
they are a pain in the you-know-what).

I think had they refused my request I would have made a bit of a stink.  Can
you speak directly to the Chairman of the Education Committee of the Board of
Trustees?

However, is this all mute now?  Is your child going to a different school?
Or just a different grade?  I am beginning to get a little confused, and I
apologize!  <grin>Subj:  Re:dyspraxia and I.Q.
Date:  95-07-30 09:19:28 EDT
From:  PeterCB55

Dear Kris,
Hopefully, things will smooth out a little and your experiences with the new
school and staff may be somewhat more productive than those you have
encountered in the past as regards your son's educational experience.

However, if this does not prove to be the case in the coming fall, you might
want to consider an alternative strategy. The rationale is that, if in the
face of your best efforts the school is unable to formulate a plan that makes
sense, or impart to you the sense that they are willing to get  to "know"
your child and formulate an education plan that is appropriate, an advocate
may be helpful in negotiating specific modifications.  The idea (only if
needed or necessary) is to consider taking all of the reports, findings,
charts, graphs, and documentation and any other related stuff, and find
yourself a consultant to sift through it and help you formulate a game plan
and then work with you in meetings with school staff to help represent your
child's interests. Sometimes, this person can take the form of a knowledgable
speech language specialist, an educational specialist who consults privately,
a child psychologist or other similarly qualified individuals, who can help
focus the educational planning effort on essentials and mediate questions and
concerns, especially in situations where there are widely differing views of
a child's abilities. Some states have organizations that specialize in this
type of activity as a service to families with learning and educational
disabilities. For example, in Minnesota, an organization called PACER,
specializes in providing this and other types of support to families of
children with various types of disabilities. There are, of course, other
types of activities available to you, that you may know of. However,  in some
instances this kind of approach, can help keep things moving forward, when a
less formal approach isn't getting you expected results with a given school
or district.

Perhaps others can add to this, regarding options that fit in between, direct
parent negotiated IEP's and the initiation of "due" process hearings with the
district. Are there other advocacy organizations that provide these kinds of
supports that you know of?

PeterCB55